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Post by bulletmagnet on Oct 27, 2008 21:17:02 GMT -6
Are we even allowed to talk about this?
If so, i'm ready for some debating, im pro-life, so any pro-choicer give me all you got and we'll go for it.
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Post by Echo on Oct 28, 2008 2:11:11 GMT -6
First off, talk about whatever your incompetent mind desires. Second, I think I probably won't have as much time as I need to discuss this in depth with you.
However....... like most conservatives (stereotype I know), are you against abortion and for capital punishment?
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Post by bulletmagnet on Oct 30, 2008 20:43:34 GMT -6
Yes I am (against abortion and for capital punishment). If you want to use that against me, and say i'm not pro-life because I support the death penalty....
I support the death penalty because I believe the punishment is just. Abortions are not. What has the embryo/fetus done to deserve to be aborted? Have they killed anyone or committed any crime? No, rather they have to die because a mother "isn't ready" or something similar.
My first point about pro-choicers:
We all (well most) don't support abortion itself, but pro-choicers have the idea that the mother should be able to choose. If they don't support abortion itself, why give someone the ability to choose to do it. We all don't make the right choices all the time... Should I have the choice to grab a gun and go kill the first person I see, and that be ok? Of course not, if you were in control of the situation, and could change anything you wanted... you would of course make sure that I wouldn't do that, as it is a wrong choice...
Anyone is welcome, fire away.
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Post by Echo on Oct 31, 2008 2:12:13 GMT -6
I'm sure no one will read this because of the length so I'm probably wasting my time.
Ok here comes my fire...
I want to know what you'd say to a woman's face after she were raped and impregnated by a complete stranger... you know, that person(the rapist) you think should be put to death? Do you tell her that she has to give birth to a child who's very face will remind her of the worst event of her life? Yes there's adoption as an option so instead you must tell her that she's required by law to structure the next 9+ months of her life around the disabling effects of pregnancy and pain of childbirth of a newborn bred from forced intercourse.
Here's another "riddle" for you and a reason I believe conservative views are F'ed up. A 15 year old African American girl(or maybe she should be white so you can relate), born to poverty, is impregnated incestuously by her older brother. She really didn't have a bright future ahead of her because college was out of the question. That's what happens when welfare funds are ignored or extra money for poverty level citizens' education are nowhere to be found. Despite the inability to attend college her only dream was to graduate high school and break away from the drug riddled neighborhood she was born into. However, and here's the kicker, when abortion is illegal and she's required by law to keep this bastard child she must drop out of high school and work two full time jobs if she's to afford hospital bills, baby food, supplies, etc. And we already know she doesn't have insurance. And we already know our health care system is garbage. And we already know that no one will inform her of programs like WIC. And we already know welfare is being ignored by conservatives. So this young girl, who did NOTHING WRONG, is forced to live her entire life as a struggle. Her child will be brought into the same environment to experience the same hardships and impossibilities. The Circle of Life right? Our government will ignore them completely because its not only easier... but cheaper.
Are you aware that doctors and scientists can use aborted fetuses to save other lives? Also use them in stem cell research to develop ways to save and improve even more lives? I suppose you are against stem cell research without even knowing what it is. Just because your political affiliation or church says you should be...
As for the death penalty I find it hilarious beyond measure that most people preaching capital punishment call themselves Christians. Does this book called the Bible not preach forgiveness? To quote the main protagonist from this book, "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone". Maybe I'm mistaken and somewhere in this book of faith it says something along the lines of, "Nah its ok to kill someone if they started it. If they did it first". Hypocrisy at its most intense level.
Just thinking about all of this is making me so irate I can't discuss it effectively at the moment.
I feel like I could rant for fricken ever. All I can say is that people prioritize. If its a higher priority for you to believe what you're told to believe than it is for you to question your beliefs, educate yourself on the subject, reevaluate your thoughts, and THEN decide well that's just peachy. I want more out of my life and mind than what I'm told I should have. The only way to truly educate yourself is to question everything.
A big middle finger goes out the that presumptuous prick Bill O'Reilly.
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Post by bulletmagnet on Oct 31, 2008 17:24:22 GMT -6
I am, in fact educated on the subject, im not subject to believe the first thing I hear, lets keep it a debate over abortion, not personal attacks Here you go: Oh, i'm sorry, I didn't realize having a baby was a such a burden, yes perhaps killing it would be a better choice? Do you really think that while a victim of rape is holding a baby she hates it and it's nothing but a reminder of that awful time? Each time that baby smiles, takes its first steps, says something cute, I think that would be the last thing going through her mind. A human life has been saved and is in her arms. Another chance at curing cancer, becoming the next president, living a happy successful life... saved. On your story: It is indeed a sad story. It happens all too often, I know. I can't do anything about the economical help of the girl, that comes with better leadership, so complain to the higher authorities among us about it. So killing the baby instead would have been a better choice? My parents are friends with a family struggling to make enough to put food on the table, they have 4 kids. Should those kids all be put to death to easen up the family's economic stress? Ahh, how true, I can't even remember how many liberals i've seen helping out struggling mothers, or wait, did I even start counting? Lmao, maybe YOU should do the research before being judgemental. How childish. I guess I didn't realize that you knew everything about me. Once again, i'd like to stay friends, and just debate these issues if it's possible, if you would like to cooperate, let's please refrain from these kind of things. Ok, the Bible. Make sure and don't forget the rest of the verses in it. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. --Genesis 9:6 An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth… --Exodus 21:23-25 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. --Numbers 35:31
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Post by Echo on Oct 31, 2008 20:05:37 GMT -6
Ok, the Bible. Make sure and don't forget the rest of the verses in it. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. --Genesis 9:6 An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth… --Exodus 21:23-25 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. --Numbers 35:31
Ok I'm already semi-drunk for Halloween so I'll try and keep this short. Aside from the fact that you ask to keep personal attacks at bay and then attack me personally lol. Also, I don't think I attacked you personally. If anything I attacked you impersonally.
Commandment 5: Thall shalt not kill... not "Thall shalt not kill unless its someone that's already killed".
Only two of your quotes hold any weight to your argument whatsoever since the middle one (eye for an eye) was from the Code of Hamerabi... a pagan ruler in Mesopotamia. Crazy that I know so much about the Bible.
Here's more. Have you heard of The Beatitudes? I believe one says, "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." I believe its from the sermon on the mount at the beginning of the Gopsel of Matthew. Actually read all of Matthew chapter 5 because I think there's some text in there where Jesus, in much more eloquent monologue, says, now that I have become the sacrificial lamb I have brought on new laws. This would discount your other two quotes since they come from the Old Testament, which I find allegorical.
We'll stick to religion since I know that's your most important hangup. In the Christian faith Jesus was crucified so that we might be forgiven our sins. He was a symbol of God's forgiveness. Conveniently christians ignore this and believe God's quotes before his son came and died for us still hold complete weight.
Also the first quote is easily picked apart if you know something about linguistics but I know the minute I go into why it doesn't support capital punishment the only thing you'll be thinking about is why I'm wrong. It deals with pronouns and ellipses so I'll spare you.
For every argument I bring to the table, your Bible will have a quote that discounts it. That's because the Bible is chock full of contradictory dialogue. I will ask you this: "How do you decide which words of this book to follow and which to ignore?" On this instance you take God's quotes about murdering murderers to heart whilst casting Jesus' quote about compassion aside. As a christian how do you decide that? Also, how do you decide how severe a crime is before you stop showing forgiveness? At what point do you say, "That's it, no more forgiveness."?
Sorry this isn't from your Bible but here's a quote that makes a hell of a lot of sense: An eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
So much for short.
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Post by bulletmagnet on Oct 31, 2008 22:05:19 GMT -6
LoL so much for the abortion debate, let's get back to it soon since that's what I started the topic on, but i'll argue the death penalty too. Wasn't aware I attacked you personally, apologies if you took it that way... on to the debate: Ahhh, but did the New Covenant render the Old Covenant obsolete? [/quote] The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament. Shouldn't you discount them as well? Do what you wish, i'm not asking for a handicap sticker. Well we should just start picking apart the whole bible then, if that verse isn't clear enough... Not sure how many ways you can reword it, but give it a shot, i'll keep an open mind. Let me ask you this: How can it be possible, that the death penalty is such a moral crime, when abortion is not? "Ahh, you killed someone, your grounded." And then, "well, you were an accident... you didn't do anything wrong and you won't get your chance at life, sorry, but your toast..."
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Post by Echo on Oct 31, 2008 23:38:18 GMT -6
Are we supposed to pick and choose parts of the Bible to live by?
I asked you this exact question because that's exactly what Christians do. You ignored it. I don't really follow the Bible word for word so I don't have to be a hypocrite.
Well we should just start picking apart the whole bible then, if that verse isn't clear enough... Not sure how many ways you can reword it, but give it a shot, i'll keep an open mind.
Until you know how olde english translates to today's dialect don't question how clear/unclear it is.
You ignore my most important questions because you you find them difficult to answer. Therefore I think I might be done debating this. I make it a point to not waste my time on things I can't learn from and I've found there's nothing for me to learn here.
I respect your views. Really. Many times there is no right or wrong but in this case I find it hard to see any reason to support your beliefs.
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Post by bulletmagnet on Oct 31, 2008 23:46:33 GMT -6
I found you never answered all mine either , don't get too full of yourself yet hotshot. I don't see an answer to this yet... I would like a good answer to that ^ before you throw in the towel. You also didn't answer my question about what you would do if you were in control of a situation where I was about to kill someone, would you be happy that I had that choice, or want to stop me? Also no answer to Actually, it seems you haven't answered any of my questions that apply to your own emotions... I respect yours as well, and I can't see a reason to support the death of babies as well.
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Post by bulletmagnet on Oct 31, 2008 23:55:43 GMT -6
Oh, and you might want to contact all companies that publsih Bibles: King James Version, New International Version, New American Standard, etc. Obviously the updates haven't caught on to the 'actual, modern' translation.
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Post by toXic on Nov 1, 2008 12:38:17 GMT -6
It was agreed that we not discuss Religion or Politics on here. Why? Because of things like this.
But, my side. I am against abortion and the death penalty. And I don't find any contradictions in the bible. Surely you may think there are some, but if you truly read it and understand it you will realize there is none.
Of course, if you want to find problems with something you can find something wrong. That happens with everything people are against.
Edit- I have no power to lock threads here, or I would.
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Post by Echo on Nov 1, 2008 12:45:24 GMT -6
Listen, don't insult my intelligence by thinking I'd fall for your antagonistic speech; your challenges. I'm not so childish as to continue this when its worthless to the both of us. Neither of us is going to change our minds and I'm not so prideful to keep shoving what I believe in down your throat.
I knew when I started this it wasn't a good idea but I hoped I was walking into a healthy debate where I'd learn even the smallest thing. Problem is you've taught me nothing I didn't already know.
So like I said I'm done "debating", or more accurately "arguing", with someone that has nothing to teach me. No hard feelings but this is neither fun nor educational for me.
Guess I'm "throwing in the towel so you can be full of yourself hotshot"... LOL. Ridiculous.
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Post by Echo on Nov 1, 2008 12:49:51 GMT -6
It was agreed that we not discuss Religion or Politics on here. Why? Because of things like this. But, my side. I am against abortion and the death penalty. And I don't find any contradictions in the bible. Surely you may think there are some, but if you truly read it and understand it you will realize there is none.
That was agreed upon but this is Echo's Rant Room and I feel anything should be open for discussion. Plus, you and bullet and I are about the only ones that still show up here. Plus, I believe you started a President/VP poll in the General Forum. Plus, there are blatant contradictions in the Bible. Even objectively.
Edit- I have no power to lock threads here, or I would.
If everyone wants the thread locked, or deleted, I'll oblige.
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Post by toXic on Nov 1, 2008 15:10:54 GMT -6
Yes, but my thread was to be a Poll only. Not a discussion that would lead to arguing like this. Which is why I stated this in that thread.... "This is a poll. Simply vote who you will vote for this election, or who you want to win." Either way, carry on. I just hope you two kiss and make up when its finished.
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Post by bulletmagnet on Nov 1, 2008 19:38:54 GMT -6
LoL I can't kiss and make up because that's against my belief as well, and would be a whole different debate. Me and Echo are still friends, or at least I am, if I seemed to let any personal comments out, my fault. I'm not against Echo, i'm against abortion.
Sure Echo that's fine, its worthless debating when someone will not respond to pathos anyway, debates centered around only logos are no fun.
(Anyone else open to argue this go ahead, i'm waiting.)
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